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  • Tapping noise when cold

    Hi guys

    Sorry for long post.

    I've got some problems with my 1996 D4 with 24000 miles on the speedo.

    It all started last summer when I noticed a light tapping when it was cold. Nothing serious, but being aware of the 3rd rod bearing issue and as I've never heard it before I changed oil and filter and looked for flakes. Oil was fine. It disappeared during warm up so I tried to ignore it.

    It was slowly getting worse so I tried to locate it without any luck. Most people I talked to said that it was probably the CCT and that it's normal for these engines to rattle a bit. Cleaned and reset the CCT a couple of times but it didn't make any difference.

    Time went by and it's still slowly getting worse, and now I have a distinct tapping and what I would describe as a light rattle when it's could (not really a knocking). I've done close to 4000 miles since I've first heard it and it still runs absolutely great when it's all warmed up. It's smooth and tight and compared to six other zed's that belongs to some friends it actually sounds best.

    But as it still slowly getting worse I feel that I really need to find out what's wrong. This is what I've done so far:

    · Changed oil/filter again. Still looks good, no flakes (drain both plugs of course)

    · New spark plugs and air filter

    · Done valves two times. Had to do 4 valves that was a bit too tight but no valve was to loose (expression/word)

    · Cam chain is good

    · Had the CCT apart several times. Works fine

    · Done the trick with adjusting the CCT manually with a screwdriver while idling twice. No difference whatsoever.

    · Checked that the CCT actually works with the timing cover off.

    · Removed and examined header pipes (looks good) and put it back with new gaskets. All bolts are tight.

    · Removed and checked the alternator. Seems to be working fine. Nothing loose, no noise and there's a firm resistance when I turn it around by hand.

    · Adjusted the balance shaft.

    · Checked for loose bolts etc.

    Removed the clutch cover and the starter/alternator chain tensioner seems good to me. But there's definitely marks on the clutch pressure plate. Dont know what's caused that and it's possible that is due to something that's happened before I bought it. But it could be part of the problem as well. I attached some pictures of what it looks like.

    Went to my local dealer yesterday and let him listen to it (he's well experienced with kwakis). Engine was warm when I showed up. He laughed and said that it sounded absolutely great and that I needed to get some ear plugs [emoji1]
    He listened again when it had cold off for an hour. Now he could hear the noise but he couldn't pin point what it is. He was 99,9% sure that it's not the 3rd rod bearing (or any bearing at all) because there's absolutely no noise at all when it's warmed up and there's no way that it should have lasted for almost 6000 miles. He looked at the pics I've taken on the pressure plate and said that it might possibly be the fault. But he thought that it was strange that it completely disappears when it's warmed up.

    Here's a couple of links of how it sounds when it's cold. Recorded on my phone and the quality is crap, so it's not the best to judge from.

    Indoors:
    https://youtu.be/bLJTmRSjJDo

    Outdoors:
    https://youtu.be/F-L3qTjPyGI

    I'm gonna order the fix for the starter/alternator chain tensioner. Don't know if it will solve anything. But it's not that much money and it doesn't hurt to try.

    I'm running on a fully synthetic racing oil now and maybe I should change oil brand and try a semi synthetic?

    All suggestions are more than welcome as I'm all out of ideas know...

    Roger

    / Stromma
    Last edited by Stromma; 05-16-2017, 05:58 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Tapping noise when cold

    Wow, that's really noticeable on the video- I was surprised. I assume you have tested whether having the clutch engaged or not makes any difference. Leaving that out of the equation, there is not much left for it to be, eh? If I had to bet I would say it is in the alternator/starter chain tensioner, you will know soon enough. I think Tex on this site had similar issues, he will probably chime in here...

    Greg
    "The Price of Speed is Eternal Vigilance" 2015 ZX14R 30th, Four Kids

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    • #3
      Re: Tapping noise when cold

      BTW, very nice looking bike- and those of your friends! Where are you located?

      G
      "The Price of Speed is Eternal Vigilance" 2015 ZX14R 30th, Four Kids

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Tapping noise when cold

        I was going to say cam chain tensioner also but since you have already addressed that issue then I'm at a loss.

        Hope you get it sorted.

        Good looking bike!


        Keep us posted.
        I have neither the time,or the inclination, to explain myself to a man, who rises and sleep under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner, in which I provide it. I'd rather you just say 'thank you' and go on your way.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Tapping noise when cold

          You said the cam chain was good, but have you taken it out to measure a set length (certain amount of links), there will be a tolerance for the length in the maintenance manual. Maybe before you go to the trouble of removing the cam chain, try a manual CCT and see if you can "adjust the rattle out" which might show if the cam chain is worn beyond limits.

          Other than what Gregness said about engaging the clutch to take that out of the equation I don't know what else to suggest.
          2002 ZZR1200
          2009 KLR650
          1986 GPz900R
          1984 GPz750 Turbo

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Tapping noise when cold

            Originally posted by gregness View Post
            I assume you have tested whether having the clutch engaged or not makes any difference.Greg
            Yep. It makes no difference on the noise.

            Originally posted by gregness View Post
            If I had to bet I would say it is in the alternator/starter chain tensioner, you will know soon enough. I think Tex on this site had similar issues, he will probably chime in here...
            Greg
            Took a closer look at the alternator chain tensioner today while cranking it with the starter. Most of the time the chain runs pretty smooth. But then once in a while when the tensioner can't hold the slack of the chain it jumps, and boy was I surprised. Now I definitely know what made those marks on the pressure plate. That design is nothing but a disaster waiting to happen. Just glad it hasn't done more damage already. So it's definitely one part of the problem.

            Originally posted by gregness View Post
            BTW, very nice looking bike- and those of your friends! Where are you located?
            Thanks! I live in Norrköping, Sweden.

            Originally posted by BIG O View Post
            I was going to say cam chain tensioner also but since you have already addressed that issue then I'm at a loss.Hope you get it sorted.

            Good looking bike!

            Keep us posted.
            Thanks and I will!

            Originally posted by hucky View Post
            You said the cam chain was good, but have you taken it out to measure a set length (certain amount of links), there will be a tolerance for the length in the maintenance manual. Maybe before you go to the trouble of removing the cam chain, try a manual CCT and see if you can "adjust the rattle out" which might show if the cam chain is worn beyond limits.

            Other than what Gregness said about engaging the clutch to take that out of the equation I don't know what else to suggest.
            I haven't taken the cam chain out. But I measured it part by part (10 links at the time), added and compared to the spec, turned the engine around and measured again until I checked the whole chain twice. Might not be foolproof, but no matter how I did it it's as good as new. The CCT is about 1/4 when it's adjusted/working and that should be perfectly fine. Tensioner works perfect when I check it and it goes all the way out before I'm even close to putting the bolt back in when I'm doing it by hand. I've tried the trick with pushing the tensioner manually with a screwdriver while idling twice (pushing it to the next click), but it makes no difference.


            I checked up on a couple of things while I was removing my rear wheel today (need a new rear tire, again...), and the bolts on my header pipes has come loose again on no 2/3. I put in new gaskets and tightened them less than two weeks ago. Fired her up after tightening them again and it sounded better. The noise wasn't completely gone, but it definitely sounded better.

            I'm gonna order both new bolts and gaskets and see if it makes any difference. I'll keep you posted!



            Eye candy:
            Some more pics of my bike.

            The black D6 standing beside mine in the garage belongs to Pierre.

            The black & red is Leifs D2 anniversary edition.

            Last picture is:
            Kjells 1993 D1
            My 1996 D4
            Leifs 1994 D2
            Rickards 1993 D1
            Jörgens (1992 I think)
            Pierres 1998 D6


            / Stromma
            Last edited by Stromma; 05-16-2017, 05:58 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Tapping noise when cold

              Wow- that's a dedicated bunch 1100 owners- very nice set of bike all 20 years old or older. Must be that short Swedish riding season. Here in the US they were known as ZX11 Ninja's.

              Do you guys ride out of Sweden? Tour around Europe?

              Greg
              "The Price of Speed is Eternal Vigilance" 2015 ZX14R 30th, Four Kids

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Tapping noise when cold

                Originally posted by gregness View Post
                Wow- that's a dedicated bunch 1100 owners- very nice set of bike all 20 years old or older. Must be that short Swedish riding season. Here in the US they were known as ZX11 Ninja's.

                Do you guys ride out of Sweden? Tour around Europe?

                Greg
                Not yet.

                Pierre and I bought our bikes two years ago. We both had Oldskool Suzukis for some twenty years earlier but decided we wanted to try something new, and we both had the mighty Zed on our lists.

                Unfortunately the Oldskool kwaki community isn't as big as the Suzuki in Sweden, but with a little bit of luck I managed to track the other four guys down last winter. We all live in the same area and we have ridden together a couple of times now.

                I found some more zed owners on Facebook and Instagram (internet is great sometimes) that lives a bit further away, 3-4 hours, and I'm hoping we can arrange some kind of meeting this summer.

                We have talked about touring in Europe and it would be really cool if I could get them to tag along to a MotoGp event (Assen isn't that far away). We'll see what happens.

                My bike is imported and originally a ZX11 Ninja. But the first owner took the stickers off and replaced them with the 1100 [emoji20]
                I'm gonna repaint it and hopefully I can get the right one's back on then.

                Your kind of right about the short riding season in Sweden as most people (not all) take out their bikes in april or May and put them away again in September. But some of us are riding as long as possible. For me that means that my last ride last year was the day before Christmas [emoji319]

                Took my first ride this year in February. Yep, it was cold as hell [emoji12]



                / Stromma
                Last edited by Stromma; 05-16-2017, 06:39 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Tapping noise when cold

                  That's not good. Can you hear where it's coming from in the engine? It does sound a bit like a cam chain or valve train noise, but it's hard to tell from a recording.

                  I'm not sure if I'd ride it far until you find the problem.

                  Sent from my SM-G9208 using Tapatalk
                  "You don't get slower with age, you just get more cautious." Michael Rutter

                  06 Ocean Blue ZZR1200, the coolest colour.
                  99 Yamaha R1

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Tapping noise when cold

                    Originally posted by Moise View Post
                    That's not good. Can you hear where it's coming from in the engine? It does sound a bit like a cam chain or valve train noise, but it's hard to tell from a recording.

                    I'm not sure if I'd ride it far until you find the problem.

                    Sent from my SM-G9208 using Tapatalk
                    It's not the valves and I couldn't find anything wrong in the cylinder head. I've checked the cam chain and tensioner and there's nothing wrong there either.

                    Alternator chain tensioner however isn't good and I've got plenty of marks in the clutch pressure plate (see my previous posts). So that's probably part of the problem.

                    Another part is that the exhaust pipes bolts had come loose again today, and it sounded much better after I've tightened them again. I'm gonna order new bolts and change gaskets again.

                    It's really hard to pin point exactly where it's coming from and it kind of moves around. Sometimes it feels like I can hear it better on the left side and sometimes on the right side. So most of the noise is heard around the exhaust pipes. Might be that the noise from the alternator chain somehow reproduces itself through the exhaust pipes combined with a minor leak there.



                    / Stromma

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                    • #11
                      Re: Tapping noise when cold

                      WOW!

                      Those are definitely some clean looking 20+ year old bikes!

                      Congrats!
                      I have neither the time,or the inclination, to explain myself to a man, who rises and sleep under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner, in which I provide it. I'd rather you just say 'thank you' and go on your way.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Tapping noise when cold

                        Originally posted by BIG O View Post
                        WOW!

                        Those are definitely some clean looking 20+ year old bikes!

                        Congrats!
                        Thanks [emoji4]



                        / Stromma

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Tapping noise when cold

                          New rubber and a clean chain. Needed to do something while I'm waiting for the alternator chain fix to arrive.

                          I'm really starting to miss this view [emoji12]





                          / Stromma

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                          • #14
                            Re: Tapping noise when cold

                            My alternator chain fix arrived today. Busy working tonight, but I'll try to fit it tomorrow and see if that was the problem [emoji4]



                            / Stromma

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                            • #15
                              Re: Tapping noise when cold

                              Fingers crossed for a good result.

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